Saturday, November 3, 2007
18 comments:
- Anonymous said...
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Hi pastor,
You did a good job! I'm glad you took the time to research the EO Church.
-diane moos -
November 3, 2007 11:18 PM
- Eric said...
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Awesome post Steve,
Even with the Dispensational view and the rapture, I would say that most people want to DO something. I have had some inquires to open Door and they have been how can I serve the community and what are you doing to serve. I must admit it has been a bit humbling.
People want to do something and I think we can all agree the RCC and EO are busy tending to peoples needs today while Evangelicalism has created its Christian subculture and retreated from the world at large. This is of course an overstatement as there are groups in evangelicalism that are working hard in the community but that is never the focus of articles in Christianity Today now is it?
If the Rapture happened today, would Jesus find us about our Fathers business? Feeding the homeless, clothing the naked? Caring for the Widow and Orphan? Or would He find us arguining over small theological issues and retreating farther away from not only the World God loves but our brothers and sisters as well? -
November 4, 2007 12:06 AM
- Danny said...
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This is a good start in looking into what the EO teaches.
I would encourage you to read some books by orthodox authors because I think you'll find that some of these things are actually not as far from what we believe as they seem. They are just looked at from a different angle.
For example you said that the EO doesn't believe in original sin. I think that once you define the terms and get down to it they do believe in original but they look at what that sin was differently than most protestants do.
Often times when we disagree with a stance someone takes we tend to write about it in our terms and it makes that person's stance seem absurd in the light of what WE know. So it is good to hear their side in their terms to understand what is being said.
One thing that I have noticed though, and this is true of any church movement, and that is that the teachings that are held by the church as a whole are not necessarily practiced by the individual churches.
My personal opinion is that there is are lot of dangerous doctrines that have crept into the EO church over the centuries and these have for the most part eclipsed the good things that the EO has going for it. But that does not mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water in regards to the EO church. We can learn a lot from them. -
November 4, 2007 10:53 AM
- Kevin said...
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If there is one thing that separates Christianity from everyting else it is that we are saved by grace ALONE. It's grace + nothing. The LDS church has a lot of great teachings and similar views from "different angles". As does the Jehovah's witness church. These different angles are what makes them a cult.
There are councils throughout history that fought (literally) for key doctrinal issues (the trinity, Jesus as fully human yet fully divine, original sin, etc.). If they would have given in at any one of them for the sake of "can't we all just get along," we would not have a Biblical church today.
The only churches in the US that are growing are those who are taking stands on key issues- the Presbyterian (PCUSA) and Episcopal churches specifically are dying because they have given into popular theology/culture.
While we do need to do the Lord's work that he lays out in Matthew 25 (feed, clothe & care for) and Matthew 28 (go make disciples teaching them to OBEY), we also need to hold to what is true and right. It's not either/or.
There is a long list of things not worth arguing over, but salvation by grace alone isn't one of them.
We're not a social organization or club that exists to please the masses so that we can fill seats and tickle ears. We exist to bring the Hope of this world to people who have no Hope.
Good post Steve. -
November 5, 2007 11:52 AM
- Sean said...
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Hey Steve,
Just stopping by, loved the article very informative. Thanks for providing all the great info!
I'm not sure why the jump over to "the dark side." ;-) It does seem a bit strange especially for those coming from and evangelical background.
Maybe the lesson is that it's got to be more than programs, there needs to be an element of the supernatural "mystical" part of God and being a Christian. It seems to me that these types of organizations seem to put off that vibe... That something supernatural is happening here.
We need more of it in the form of Holy Spirit movement within the church. Good old fashioned charisma. Just my 2 cents. God bless! -
November 5, 2007 8:15 PM
- Ryan said...
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good post Steve...
the mystery of God is definetely something that this culture is embracing.
this is the reason for the success of books like "Velvet Elvis"
people have questions but are not necessarily looking for dogmatic answers...they just want to be able to ask their questions without judgment and maybe the EO church is welcoming that. -
November 6, 2007 10:55 PM
- Ryan said...
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It was good to hang out with you today...
I got your message but as you said I was already home...
I was just curious to see your response to the message.
Your right if "relevance" becomes your focus then you'll be relevant at the expense of the Word whereas if the Word is your focus you can take the timeless truths of the Word and relate them to timely events of today.
blessings,
ryan couch -
November 6, 2007 10:59 PM
- Pastor Tom Fuller said...
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Steve: Thanks for the lesson on Eastern Orthodox - I really learned a lot. In my experience the two things that attracts younger people to EO are difference and structure. EO is very different, especially from modern evangelical church movements like Calvary Chapel.
Structure means that someone else tells them what to do, what to think, what to say. It removes the individuals responsibility for studying and believing. -
November 7, 2007 8:00 AM
- Steve Hopkins said...
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Danny
You bring up a good point--read more. I am by no means an expert on the EO. The challenge for me and other pastors is to teach the scriptures. I attended a seminar for pastors yesterday with Ryan Couch and other pastors. The speaker said if relevance is your goal then relevance becomes your authority. But if exegesis is your goal then the scriptures become your authority.
Even those from the seeker friendly movement of a few years ago say they would have been better to teach scriptures and do discipleship because in the end the seeker friendly thing was a failure and in fact did more to hurt the gospel creating consumers instead of servants--takers rather than givers--spectators rather than students -
November 7, 2007 5:48 PM
- lovedbyhim said...
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test
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November 10, 2007 9:48 AM
- Steve Hopkins said...
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LBH
You sent a test. Your coming through loud and clear! -
November 10, 2007 10:00 AM
- lovedbyhim said...
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i wrote a long post early and lost it because if forgot how to post it next time i will save it (oh boy, hehhe)
i went to Russia in 2004, and loved it. The people were kind loving, and loved God above everything. we were like celebrities we arrived the "americans are here " and they greeted us with a loaf of bread, and broke it and shared it with us. was really cool ..we went with an organization called children's hope chest out of colorado springs, co. we spent 10 days at an orphanage, i am not trying to post this to get my reward now (heehe) just wanted to share, that what i experienced was something i can not describe in words, i did visit the eo church as you describe i am going to share somethings to me that were cool, they had so many beautiful painings and architecture from so long ago it was amazing...i felt no way inside, could not believe i was awake. inside the girls wore a viel and must cover their shoulders and should not wear pants as a reverence to God ..
i did not feel offended i felt wow this is pretty cool.
in my grandma's days they wore viels to church.
i bought a small painting for my dad it was a picture of Jesus going to heaven and leaving the holy spirit behind (a small foot print on the rock behind)
really cool i bought some other for my self folding velet cases
i do not worship them or do not use them as prayer tool anything just love God. (although i do know they ae not nec )
i do worship God!!!!
i had an art class at fullerton college awhile back and i absolutely loved it...i enjoyed the part about renissance period there were so many bible pictures. they drew me closer to God and i was at a public school really cool each picture told a story,
someone mentioned calvary chapel as a modern protestant church ,,,i attend one.. i think though it might be not so modern any longer since it started in the 70s.
the younger generation is looking for something that ...attracts them and will bring God to them on their level and i believe we should not compromise beliefs or the bible for something else. just a thought.. the younger generation is hungry and thirsty with lack of direction......(some kids parents did not take them to church ever..)
everyone has an emptyness inside it is what you fill your emptiness with and we are longing and thirsty for God...
i have seen a church nearby where i live i was getting my nails done, and there is a rest, called santora's and it is pretty interesting on sunday mornings all this young iwould say from 20-35 or so come and they are all into the 50s they have old cars, dress like how my parents dressed growing up it is really great
they worship God i heard the music inside the nailshop (kuddos to that church)
have an awesome weekend everyone... -
November 10, 2007 10:06 AM
- lovedbyhim said...
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one other thing i mentioned in my first deleted post was my first boyfriend long time ago
well he was lutheran and was catholic
i met his (priest , pastor ) not sure what their main guy was called.well he told me nice to meet you we are just corrected Catholics
i thought it was wierd because i would never say oh i am a corrected Lutheran
i think we need to be more loving and kind to draw people into Christ.
another thing i mentioned was that i work for a nonprofit organization and we have networking lunches last time we had 90 people attend. everyone gets a 20 sec. intro to say who they are and what they do or they get a ding. ...
well this one member he is with the interfaith council and really turns people off and is extremely dominating and pushy with his beliefs....instead of accepting everyones beliefs like they are supposed too. well he follows this rev. moon which prob could be a post in itself. he promotes the thanksgiving service they are having with many religions. They he promotes some tour with rev moon and to become some ambassador of peace program in la ...looks like if you were one you would get shipped off and shot at....
well he is turning so many people off and because i work there they are calling him a "moonie"
and i did not know what it was...
so anyhow i told him nicely but his reaction and answer was "Jesus was persecuted for his faith so if i get persectued and made fun of i am not different" interesting ...reaction... -
November 10, 2007 10:15 AM
- Steve Hopkins said...
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LBH
I was raised and confirmed in the Luteran church. Jokingly I used to refer to myself as a backslid catholic.
While it is true Christians will be persecuted for what they believe, there are still those who will respond to the truth of the gospel if it presented in a loving, respectful way. I believe I can hold on to the truths of the bible with one hand and embrace a homosexual, meth addict, reatavistic postmodern in the other hand. I will not "save" all but and ther is still the chance I will be perceived in a negative light, but there are many who will come to Jesus where If I adopt an "us" vs "them" mentality, I am sure to chace them away. In my mind the former is a misrepresentation of God where the secod, is what Jesus did. -
November 10, 2007 10:24 AM
- lovedbyhim said...
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that is so funny back slid catholic,hehehe
could not agree with you more...
"but there are many who will come to Jesus where If I adopt an "us" vs "them" mentality, I am sure to chase them away. In my mind the former is a misrepresentation of God where the secod, is what Jesus did. -
November 10, 2007 10:35 AM
- lovedbyhim said...
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that is so funny back slid catholic,hehehe
could not agree with you more...
"but there are many who will come to Jesus where If I adopt an "us" vs "them" mentality, I am sure to chase them away. In my mind the former is a misrepresentation of God where the secod, is what Jesus did. -
November 10, 2007 10:35 AM
- lovedbyhim said...
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i knew a pastor that they made fun of because they said he accepted homeosexuals into the church,
i felt bad people casting stones at him
what would the difference be in someone excepting drug addict hippies.
i thought sin is sin
and God did come to help the dysfunctional sick sinners. he did not come for the healthy -
November 10, 2007 10:40 AM
- lovedbyhim said...
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i knew a pastor that they made fun of because they said he accepted homeosexuals into the church,
i felt bad people casting stones at him
what would the difference be in someone excepting drug addict hippies.
i thought sin is sin
and God did come to help the dysfunctional sick sinners. he did not come for the healthy -
November 10, 2007 10:40 AM
I've noticed a voracious interest by the younger generation in the Eastern Orthodox Church. I am certain that many in the Emnerging/Emergent movement have been influeced by it. The Eastern Orthodox Church--the, Greek Orthodox Church, and Russian Orthodox church, is a body of Christians that claim origins extending directly back to Jesus and his Apostles through an unbroken physical line of Apostolic Succession. Likewise they claim to be the preservers of the original teachings and traditions which established the Church at Pentecost. The EO grew and flourished within the Byzantine Empire and later spread to Russia. Based on numbers of adherents, Eastern Orthodoxy is the second largest Christian communion in the world after the Roman Catholic Church, and the third largest grouping overall after Protestantism.
According to a task force on the Orthodox church done a Biola University, the Orthodox church differs from Evangelicalism is several significant ways:
Orthodox teaching implicitly denies justification by faith alone asserting the necessity of sacramental rites (baptism) for justification or salvation. Evangelical Protestantism denies that baptism or any other sacramental right is essential for salvation. If salvation is as the result of baptism, then something has been added to justification by faith alone.
The orthodox church denies justification by faith alone and includes good works for righteousness.
Orthodox theology holds that justification includes also the actual making of a person righteous. It holds that a person is a partaker of the divine nature and thus, entering the path of theosis or deification.
The Eastern Orthodox church denies the principle of Sola Scriptura. The EO regard the seven ecumenical councils as inspired, inerrant, and absolutely authoritative and on par with scripture. While conservative protestants agree with at least most of the conclusions of the councils, we do not agree that they are inspired. Protestants agree with them in as far as they reflect scripture which alone is infallible and inspired.
The EO believes it is the Spirit led church and the only infallible interpreter of scripture. Individuals must therefore conform their interpretations to the infallible teachings of the church.The Orthodox church teaches that the Church is the continuation of the incarnation of Christ in the world. The church thus conveys the saving grace of Christ through the sacraments
The Orthodox church believes it alone is the true visible church in the world. Although there is the possibility of salvation outside the EO, the full enjoyment of the grace of salvation is only found in the EO.
Like Protestants, the Orthodox church holds that all believers are "saints". But some members are officially recognized through canonization as having obtained a level of sanctification known as glorification. These recognized saints play a significant role in the EO which includes praying to them, and asking them to intercede for us as well as venerating them and their relics.
The Orthodox church teaches that the ultimate fate of an individual is not determined until the last day of judgment. The person still has the opportunity to turn more to or away from God. Thus there is a need to pray for the departed dead in their journey toward the final judgment.
The Orthodox religion has a number of teachings about Mary that the protestant church holds as non biblical. These include her perpetual virginity, her freedom from actual sin, the bodily Assumption of Mary (her body was not subjected to corruption she was instead immediately glorified at her death); She is to be be venerated as the most holy saint; believers are to pray to her and ask her to intercede for them in heaven.
The EO venerates icons. Orthodox are to honor, worship God, and pray before icons. And lastly, the Orthodox church denies original sin. The Protestant view has held that all people have inherited from Adam not only the corruption and mortality of sin, but also the guilt of sin. One of the chief problems of this theology is that it minimizes the problem of sin in general and the death of Christ as a sacrifice to satisfy God's just condemnation of the sinner as one guilty of breaking His law.
With the obvious divergence from Protestantism, why the willingness of so many younger or disenchanted Christians to abandon Evangelicalism for the EO? I don't know for sure but I wonder if it isn't because of the due in part to a failure in Evangelicalism to translates the basic truths of scripture to this culture.
Gallup says 80% of Americans believe the words of God to be inspired yet 30% of those raised in church can not tell you what Easter is about. Dr. Michael Horton said, “Just as Rome’s infallibility rested on the belief that the Bible itself was difficult, obscure, and confusing, so today people want the “net breakdown” from the professionals: what does it mean for me and how will it help me and make me happy?”
The Orthodox church is touted as being the "ancient church" Without a doubt there is a connection to the past and a stability in the EO that is very attractive. Could it be because there is a huge hypocrisy in Evangelicalism. We hold matters like homosexuality, drug use and alcohol abuse to be sinful yet some of its key leaders are practicing such things.
I am dispensational and believe the rapture of the church is the next event on the prophetic scene. I make no apologies for my belief. But I have never given a prophecy update and never will. But since the early 70’s, with news paper in one hand and the bible in the other many pastors have intimated not that it could happen any day, but that it will happen this year. Many of the young are concerned with the here and now and not the future. They want to clean up the environment now and are bothered by injustice, and war. In short, they feel the responsibility to make the world a better place now rather than be infatuated with the future.
Now there is a need for systematic theology Could the departure be because of Evangelicalism obsession with systematic theology that it has reduced God to a system of logic and left no room for the mystery of God? I have to admit, that is what I found attractive about the Orthodox church but the disparity in theology was to big a leap for me to make.
With the mesmerization of the EO and it's appeal But I can’t help but think that the interest is due in part of the failure or perceived failure, or frustration on the part of “the Western church. Is there a lesson to be learned here?