Tuesday, February 5, 2008

The Berlin Wall and the Emerging Church

At 2:20 p.m. at the Brandenburg Gate, in West Berlin, Germany, President Ronald Reagan gave 2,703 word speech where these now famous words were spoken

"General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate…Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"

The Berlin Wall which divided the city of Berlin and the nation of Germany into two parts became a symbol dividing the two ideologies of Communism and democracy

The wall was pulled down in 1989 and brought about a unified Germany. But more importantly the crumbling of the Wall heralded the end of the Cold War and the dismantling of the Communist Bloc.

From my vantage point the Emergent or Emerging leaders are calling for the same thing.Whether behind pulpits, or in class rooms they are demanding theological monoliths, well as definitions of Church, and what it means to be a Christian to be torn down and Christianity restructured to met the demands and reflect the values of a new culture.

The lines that once defined Church and disciples of Christ are being erased and redrawn. For instance, some gatherings, or church meetings, are held in a bar or a pub, rather than a church building. If they still gather in a church building, the meeting place is referred to as the "worship space" not the sanctuary. And believers are not known as Christians but "Christ followers".The work of taking the gospel to the world is called "missional" not "evangelism" and is more about making disciples and being like Jesus to outsiders than large gatherings where converts are made.

The more radical Emergent arm of the new believer is calling for an end to the war in Iraq and Social activism. The Emerging arm is also calling for an end to war, but is more conservative theologically holding more closely the essentials of faith.

One pastor I know, Has services in a local bar. In just six months he has gone from 40 to 400 people. He sometimes arranges the chairs in the form of a cross. They have wanted to open the bar before or after services but are prohibited because minors attend services.

The pastor likes a good beer and uses words in his sermons that were taboo in previous generations. One sermon title even has the word Sh*t in it.

How are we to understand this shift and what should be our response?

First off, like it or not, culture is changing and so is the understanding of “the church”. While I don't wear the title of Emergent or Emerging I for one embrace the current notion that church is something we “do” rather that something we go to.

According to Ephesians 4:12 the purpose of the “gathering” saints is to equip them for the work of the ministry. Unfortunately, church has become a spectator sport where the work of the ministry is done by the paid staff and clergy. People speak confidently about what their church is doing, when in reality “the church” is sitting on it’s butt. There is no such thing as vicarious church.

I too enjoy the current interest in putting shoe leather to faith and “the church” doing it’s part to feed the homeless, take care of widows and orphans. In fact James 1:27 says “Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world James talks about pure religion.”

Opponents of the Emerging or Emergent movement are concerned that the basic gospel message of salvation through Christ is being lost in social activism. Granted, we must be careful the the message of Salvation not be buried in social activism, but doing nothing to help the poor and the weak is a crime Jesus condemned in Matthew 25 and illustrated in the story of the Good Samaritan . In Matthew 25, good religious pew sitting people are rebuked for not caring for the poor, and in the story of the Good Samaritan, a Levite and a priest, were too busy doing “church” to stop and care for the man beaten and left in a ditch.

Mark Driscoll is called the cussing pastor. I don’t know what type of language he uses. And while I am not comfortable sprinkling my sermons with a few cuss words, I can say that words and meanings are changing along with the culture. It used to be that “gay” was a term used to describe a joyous attitude of the heart, not a lifestyle choice. Certain words once taboo are becoming a part of every day language and are seen as expressive by the current culture.

Now I am not advocating we pastors start cussing, or we meet in bars but I am saying we should at least examine how we do church, what defines a Christian, and what theological issues we can leave alone.

I am a part of a blog community (love you guys!) where the issue of Calvinism vs Arminianism, or Eschatology (End times stuff) often comes up. When ever it does, the fur flies, blood pressures rises and insinuations made. I believe these are important issues, but the debates have raged for hundreds of years and a resolution is no closer now in 2007 than it was in 1507!

Can’t we just admit that there are some issues that can’t be resolved and live with the tension? That’s one of the things I appreciate about the Emerging folks. They don’t expect their theology to be all neatly packed away and tidy. They are OK with the gray areas theologically where many American evangelicals are uneasy with anything not linearly laid out. Can’t we just love the Lordf with our whole hearts and accept that we see through a glass dimly now, but will understand and know at a future time?

I like too that the current trend toward authenticity although I wonder if Mosaics and Busters (those under 30 years of age) are truly honest. Most in the under 30 group are overly attached and influenced by “the tribe” or their friends. I don’t know how authentic one can be with that type of influence.

I think too that the present movement is recapturing the essence of the gospel. For years the gospel message has been “Get saved and avoid the fires of hell”. While hell is a real place and we should avoid it, Christ came to restore humanity to the father in the present and in the future (eternally). Through Christ we become whole people making us effective and productive NOW…While eternity is a matter we must all address, a relationship with Christ is way more than just sitting around waiting to die. We enjoy eternal life now through Christ and that continues on into eternity!

I like the rocks being thrown into the normally peaceful ecclesiological pool. I think thought in this area is necessary because, culture is changing and the way we’ve done church is not always the best way. To me it isn’t the Emerging or Emergent church but the church in Emerging culture

To that end, one thing I cannot deviate from is scriptures. I tend to be conservative on this. This is where I part company with Brian Maclaren and the Emergent Village. What is written and intended by the writers of the bible cannot be changed or to fit into or reflect the culture. It doesn’t work that way. Culture doesn’t shape scripture; scripture shapes culture. Let’s look at values, ecclesiology, the definition of a Christian and what church can look like –tear down those wall and make way for a new way but don’t mess with the authority of scripture!

43 comments:

Bob Sweat said...

Good stuff Steve!

( | o )=====::: said...

Steve,
As an emergent follower of Jesus, albeit a Boomer, I'm excited that this generation of Busters and Mosaics are asking the critical questions about what it means to worship, where and how to gather, how to pray, whether there should be such strong political affiliations, how we deal with injustice, just to mention a few issues. This is what it takes for each of us to make a living faith in Jesus our own.

What a blessed adventure!

( | o )=====:::

lbh said...

thank you so much i really enjoyed reading your blog post
i especially like when your wrote.
To me it isn’t the Emerging or Emergent church but the church in Emerging culture
this is a great statement. i totally agree with it.
i know what you mean about meeting in a spot to worship. some of my friends meet in a bar for their church to have their service, and also there is a bar in mission viejo called santora's and the younger crowd meets there and they dress like 50s i like it and think it is pretty cool to watch people of all cultures and likes worship God. also someone else i know meets up in their tattoo studio and has bible studies. God is willing to meet us where we are at. we used to have worship nights at salt creek in dana point and i considered it "bethel" God was in this place..i used to hate this job i had 15 years ago and i would go in the back and get down on my hands and knees and just pray to God. and what is funny when i left that job prior to leaving i thought it was only right to go to the same room get down on my hands and knees praise worship and thank God for rescuing me.
i totally agree with you on your post and thank you for the insight
i guess you answered my question(s) because i do not believe it is right to get plastered (drunk) and try to witness in a club i guess that was more where i was thinking like a night gathering with band playing and drinking beer. i am not throwing stones. i just don't like to drink and never really have. that is all.
have a great night

Shannon Kent said...

Steve,

I am seriously amazed that you are CC. Night and Day difference for me here compared to the CC pastor I was raised under.

Anyway...that being said. I love this discussion. It's beyond important. I'm hopeful that we'll land on some foundation soon before my kids hit puberty and all heck breaks loose in my home. I think that's my biggest fear, that this emergent conversation/movement will leave nothing solid for my children. Would love to hear any thoughts from any of you on that.

I'm part of an "emergent" church...kinda. It doesn't label itself emergent, but does all of the emergent stuff. Still trying to pinpoint the guy's theology. While I've found so much freedom and been able to truly accept grace at a level I never knew existed, I wrestle with the lack of structure and foundations that I was raised with. Is it possible to have a happy medium?

It's easy as a 20 something to go to a bar for church. (My church meets in one)...although, it's awkward to bring my children to that environment. I do it, but it's still tough for me.

Anyways...love this conversation and love what you've said.

Shannon Kent

lbh said...

ty again for taking the time to write

Anonymous said...

forgot to mention i love how you reminded us of the good samaritian

mike in oregon said...

This is a good post Steve, one that I'm going to give some thought to.

It's not a emerging church as much as it is an emerging culture. That's a thought that I'm gonna give some time to. My initial impression is that the church is lagging behind culture instead of being the force to shape or influence it.. Perhaps that's the only way it fits. I often thought that the emerging church is just another from of seeker friendly, just for the next generation.

The other thing that I think needs to be considered is the call to discipleship, that is, Jesus' call to each of us to follow Him. What is is suppose to look like? I don't think it's an arbitrary thing that is completely dependent on existing culture. If we are truly following Jesus, then it makes sense that He is the One who defines that. What does it truly mean in this day and age to take up your cross??

Shannon Kent said...

Another thought about the emergent church.

Often it can be seen as seeker friendly because of the set up...bars, music that's relevant, programming (or lack thereof) in general.

But, I think the emerging church can also be defined along the lines of involvement in the world and in society. It seems to me that many of the emerging church's are very focused on social justice, keeping the world green, and overseas missions.

My husband had the honor recently of being able to sit in a room with Jim Wallis (author of God's Politics) recently. He's the guy trying to tear down the walls of politics...republican/democrats. He basically said (not direct quote here) that the church should be deeper than being left or right winged but deeper and be the ones to change the world. There you go. This is what my Mosaic generation wants. We are tired of guys like Dobson telling us how to vote and what it means to be a Christian. We want to do something meaningful and deeper for God's kingdom and for this world.

To me, that's what taking up your cross is all about. And, I think this is at the core of many of the emerging/emergent churches.

Also, Steve, I showed my hubby your article. He loved what you had to say and how you correlated the Berlin Wall to the Emergent Church. He's not one to be easily impressed, either, and rarely, if ever reads my blogs I frequent. Anyway..dude, THANKS so much!!

Shannon

Steve Hopkins said...

Shannon
I agree that christianity has been defined to mean, we follow the teaching of Jesus, are saved by grace AND vote republican, hate gays and liberals, and so on and son on.
evangelism has been defined as engaging culture but on our turf! Come to church, accept Jesus and join our subculture. While I don 't support abortion, and believe the bible teches against homosexuality, I don't feel I need to draw a line to divide us, and While I respect Mr. dobson and Focus on the Family, I don't feel that the Christians are to be a political faction to be mobilized.

What I am learnng from the Mosaics and the Busters is that they engage culture on their turf. Instead of people coming to "church" they take the gospel to them first off in deed and anctions and secondly, by meeting in places like bars and pubs. Instead of inviting outsiders to our turff, we meet them on theirs and believe the HS will bring conformity to God's word. But again, we can't change God's tried and true word. The question we need to ask is not how we can morph the word to be culturally relevant but what was in the mind of the inspired writers when they wrote the bible. That's the quest and that's the journey we are on

Ryan said...

Hey Steve...good article.

Most of our peers don't understand that we don't have to become liberal and wierd to reach our culture.

We can have it both ways...we can teach the Bible...be solid theologically and embrace the culture.

Equipping the saints is important...it's paramount. It's waht every pastor should be focused upon.

But what are we equipping the saints for? To exist in a little bubble of our own making?

Of course not...we are equipping them to fulfill the great comission, which is becoming effective missionaries right here in our local context.

blessings...ryan

Rev. David Hammock said...

Unless growth is brought about through principles found in the Word of God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with a heart of genuine "obedience" where is the eternal value?

Tearing down walls of tradition, ecclesiastical rites, rituals and dogma that is contrary to the Word or the Father is one thing. Compromising the truth is a whole different level of conforming to the culture that in the end will come to naught. God does not change. Jesus does not change. The Holy Spirit does not change. God is not available for the convenience of anything more than building the kingdom, the true bride, the living organism called "the church." But..Jesus did not come to build an organization, did He?

Rev. David Hammock
Founder & President
Revivals For America
www.myspace.com/revivalsforamerica

David Hammock said...

Unless truth is used to set the "standard" of just what church is, what do you think the "culture" can do? Facts change. Truth doesn't.

I don't think the angels in heaven are rejoicing because a "cussing" preacher is drawing a few crowds here in there. What will he do next? Snort cocaine while preaching on heaven to "identify" with the culture?

We are living in perilous times my friend. People are giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Just what does a "cussing" preacher do for an encore'?

If the church is so worldly and the world is so churchy, why should anyone be drawn to a "religion" of spiritual "powerlessness?"

Rev. David Hammock
President
Revivals For America
www. myspace.com/revivals4america

Kevin said...

Steve-

I'd say you're dead-on. Usually when people talk about emergent, they are referring to a "style" of church that makes it more inviting to the person outside the church. Those 18-35 reject the tradions of the church (and the leadership) yet they pray, they like Jesus and want to know more. They just don't trust the church. So, what's the Christian to do? Find a way to reach them with the truth.

You are the last person on the planet that would ever comprimise the truth of the Scriptures.

I would disagree with David's comments above. Jesus came and tore down the walls of traditions, ecclesiastical structures. Then Martin Luther came along and corrected the course of the atrocities that were happening in church. Who's to say that something similar doesn't need to happen today? I think the "Emergent" movement (which few people can actually define) wants to tear down the structures because modernism isn't working. The church is shrinking. I agree however, that unless it's built on truth and doesn't comprimise God's word then it's just another universalist/humanist church.

I believe that the protestant church has some important lessons to learn from the efforts of those who call themselves emergent (which usually they don't call themselves anything, it's other people who call them names and lable them). I think listening would be a good practice for those who are more opposed to change than they are to something labeled emergent.

Good post.
Kevin

Steve Hopkins said...

Kevin
If the church is built upon anything other than the truth as revealed by Christ and the Word, it may be a church--but not God's true church on the foundation of Christ.

Steve Hopkins said...

Kevin
If the church is built upon anything other than the truth as revealed by Christ and the Word, it may be a church--but not God's true church on the foundation of Christ.

Shannon Kent said...

Here's the question, though...

What truth is everyone referring to?

That Jesus died on a cross for our sins and we are to accept this gift to go to heaven? That's the truth my so called "emergent" church believes and teaches.

Just wanted to be sure that there isn't a broad brush going on here.

Shannon

Shannon Kent said...

and seriously...

cussing...the next step after that typically isn't cocaine snorting...good gosh.

These pastors are just being authentic. Most of us cuss in our thoughts on occasion and refrain from actually speaking what we are thinking. The fact that they are being crude doesn't mean they are bound to hit the drugs next. That is FAR reaching, to say the least.

Sorry Steve, I'm trying to be cordial.

Steve Hopkins said...

Shannon
Good point. As I see it Truth, as revealed in the Bible, is tied to the fact that God Himself is true (Psalm 25:10; Isaiah 65:16; Titus 1:2).

He is a real God, His character is flawless, and He is faithful in all that He does and says.

This God, the God of truth, is also a communicating Being.

Hed has revealed himself and His purpose thru various channels, But the climax of His Revelation has come in the person of His Son, Jesus the Savior (Hebrews 1:1-3).

In Jesus, the God of truth come to live among us and unveil His divine plan.

Since Jesus is “the truth” (John 14:6), He speaks reliable words and He promised to lead His followers into a fuller realization of the truth (John 16:12-14).

This truth, which finds its clearest expression in the biblical writings—gives us both the pathway to God and a framework for living under His rule (John

Shannon, don't limit your definitionof What Christ came to do. He came to save us from death and hell (future) but he cake also to restore us in perfect dependent relationship with the Father, the source of all life (present). He meets two needs he out within us; for significance and unconditional love. Without these emotuional and spiritualneeds met, we go thru life giving to get, or to fill our glass. But when we recognize those tow needs as fulfilled by Christ, we become productive, sacrifcial, whole people. I like to think of the eternal life Jesus died to give us as beginning now, in the present and continuing on into eternity. In other words I don't hzved to wait for Joy, and fulfillment. I can begin to expereince it now thru Jesus

Steve Hopkins said...

Shannon
No Problem! BTW I am not saying cussing is a good thing to do when we preach. My point was that what is profanity to one generation is not to another. Times are changing and so are words and values. We need to be ready to meet the change head on so that some may be restored to Christ

Rob Cathcart said...

To be fair to Mark Driscoll, I've been listening to his podcasts for the last year and have never heard him cuss. In fact, he sounds downright CC to me! Maybe being called "the cussing pastor" in Don Miller's book was a wake up call.
Thanks Steve for portraying the emergent church in an honest light. It's very refreshing to hear a non emergent pastor talk about the emergent church without accusing it of "Kumbaya theology". Thanks for being so nontraditional!

Steve Hopkins said...

Hi Rob
We've been trying to locate you! To be clear, there is a difference between the Emergent church and the Emerging Church. The Emergent arm is the Emergent Village and is pretty rdical theologically where the Emerging folks are adhering more to conservative doctrines, while still challenging ecclesiology and praxis.

Rob Cathcart said...

Thanks for setting me straight, Steve. Emergent, emerging...I'm embarrassed to say I always thought they were synonymous.


-how can I get in touch with you?

lbh said...

all the comments remind me of a song
In Christ the solid rock i stand
all other ground is sinking sand...

mike in oregon said...

david hammock,
"I don't think the angels in heaven are rejoicing because a "cussing" preacher is drawing a few crowds here in there. What will he do next? Snort cocaine while preaching on heaven to "identify" with the culture? "

ya david, he's gonna do some blow......... nice........

lovedbyhim said...

i do not know david but i think maybe he was making a point on compromising if he is supposed to be the pastor. however only Jesus is perfect. I know i question things too at times and i am sure all pastors say and do things they regret like we do.
i have a bad habbit of cursing probably more than i used too. which i never used to do it may not be the severly doragatory words but i have said the "a" word, perhaps two different "s" work because of getting mad at work nice huh or the "b" word.
i can not believe i allow those to come out my mouth either. i think of the scripture that talks about cursing and blessing in the same tongue.
i need to ask God to help me.

i think david's point might be if you allow one thing does it slowly allow more to creep in.
i heard something once on greg l i will paraphrase. it was like sin once, it is sin , sin three times no longer sin to you..
you compromise so much that it numbness.
well, not saying or pointing either way but some good thoughts to think about.
remember in corinth when the one person was sleeping with another family members spouse and they kicked them out.
i know that the culture is changing but how much do we bend

mike in oregon said...

the cussing pastor.............
I don't think Driscoll cusses in the pulpit, probably just at other times. I've been around pastors most of my life and most of them cussed now and then; at times so do I. I remember an old country preacher from Texas who believed in calling it as he saw it. And he was dead on every time. He was a very effective and anointed pastor. I'm not trying to justify anything, but the reality is all of us are a whole lot less spiritual than we or anyone else thinks we are.

I've never known a pastor that thought that his use of language would be something to attract a crowd. It has nothing to do with emerging.

It's important to remember that there is nothing new under the sun.

lbh said...

It's important to remember that there is nothing new under the sun.

could not agree with you more

Philip said...

I might take your comment regarding 'doing vs. attending' church further, by saying the Church is what we ARE not what we do or where we attend worship. Until we see Jesus as our identity, our trademark, our purpose, we'll continue to play the religion game.

lovedbyhim said...

agree with philip it is who we are and what we do not where we attend worship
people can get in arguments even over that subjet.
the most common subjects i have seen debates on is when you die do you go to sleep and wait for the trumpet or do you go absent from body and present with the Lord.
also another one is about the tribulation...
and now the other one where do you go to church
i have seen an entire thread on the purpose driven life book.
or oh not that is an emerging pastor or something like that ...oh no don't attend that mcloud and townsend seminar becareful and stuff like that...

lovedbyhim said...

i think the more i think about it the more we need to be reminded love God with all your heart soul and mind and then love others the same...just like the Jesus Creed book that was discussed in the begining the last discussion.
i think we need to be constantly reminded how soon we can forget important things in life especially we can not just read the bible and say oh i already read it...it is our daily bread..

lovedbyhim said...

last night we gathered at our place of worship, for the Jesus followers (i hope i got that right hehehe)
our
Message was on mark 9:38-41 "And John answered him, saying "master we saw one casting out devils in thy name , and he followed not us, and we forbad him because he followeth not us.
But Jesus said Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For whe that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a c up of water to drink in my name, because you belong to Christ, verily I say unto you , he shall not lose his reward.
it was so perfect it was on just because people are not exactly the same...we are all on the same team Jesus

brother said...

How I love you all, those who would uncover truth.

I have a friend who is dying. He was a Nazi soldier who, after fighting the Russians, was relocated and then shot by an American at Normandy and taken prisoner for 8 mos until Sept 1945. He later took residence in Oregon where he has lived out most of his life.

He is unaware of my deep respect and love for the Hebrews. I have struggled in my desire to understand him, as I have revisited history concerning Hitler's profound indoctrination of Germany's youth. His racist reference of my better half as a "Latina" has not helped.

What has this to do with the subject? I shared with this man my background in music and my time playing in the bars. He does not know about the spiritual exchanges that took place. He merely expressed an opinion alluding to the "low life" who would frequent such places.

I left bible college in my youth because similar opinions disagreed with my view that, if Christ had instead walked among us today, he would have demonstrated God's love where it was needed most, not simply where it was acceptable.

Cigarette smoke forced me out of those places but I am not ashamed I was there. I know the Holy Spirit was there. We should pray for both those who destroy themselves and those who believe they are well. We must know that we are each susceptible to either camp. I could not relate to this work in progress had Christ not matured on the "other side of the tracks."

Thank you precious ones at CC for focusing on the Love of God.

bobm said...

Part of my issue of the emergent or emerging church and also with the more traditional expression of "The church" is the tendency to use the words of Jesus Christ, and the scriptures as a whole for my own purposes and mold it to MY WILL. Whether I express it as a "Christian" or "Christ Follower" the implied purpose in labeling myself in that way is to follow the whole understanding of His teachings and His purposes and to implement them according to HIS WILL. Otherwise I am simply constructing a new religion to fit my own desires not really following anyone.

Steve Hopkins said...

Bob
Here's the question Ihave. Is the God we serve and see in the bible a construct of our modernist view point? Seems the Emerging/Emergent crowd thinks so. But in their frustration with the church are they constructing a God based upon their postmodern world view?

The challenge for me is to some how get into the heads of the gospel and epistle writers to understand their view of God and what they truly meant.

Right now we have a session on Wednesday nights studying the early church up to the council at Nicea. It's taught by Dr. Wayne House. One of my goals is to see the apostolic writings worked out in culture. Hey you ought to come! three more weeks of study. It's awesome. 6:30 -5:00 if you want to eat dinner with us (the church)

mike in oregon said...

hey Steve,
You have those studies at your website, right??

Steve Hopkins said...

Mike
Yes, they willbe. The guy wgho eits and loads the studies is a little behind but they will be up shortly,

mike in oregon said...

I'm hoping to hear some more people talk about church meeting in a bar. I don't want to hear "ya, that's what we do", I would like to here why they meet there?

I understand that bars are meeting places where people come together and socialize. I spent a lot of time in bars in the past, I don't recall much if any good happening in them.

There is a group that meets in a bar in this area. They aren't emergies, they're bikers. The place they meet in is as much a restaurant as it is a bar.. But why meet in a bar?? Is it God on tap? Sure would like to hear form some of you on this one.......

Steve Hopkins said...

Mike
I think the intend is to take church out of the sanctuary and to where the outsiders are. Outsiders won't come to them so they go to them instead. Now, whether it's successful or not is another thing. The ideais to engage culture rather than wait for themto muster the courage to walk into a sanctuary where people talk alike, look alike...I can say from first hand expereince that it can be a little intimidating. Others have thoughts on this?

brother said...

'Emerging' minutia. Over-analyzing, incessant 'rightly dividing.' No offense intended. Relying on an evolutionary context to understand the unchanging, supernatural I Am. Getting your eyes off the prize. Forgetting faith. A snare. Thinking that "... be ye separate" equals "disassociation" or, "Tell me who you are with and I'll tell you who you are." People don't have to destroy themselves in a bar. They do it at home. Jesus went to where people gathered. Simply, beautifully. Jesus rightly said that what defiled us is what comes out of our mouths, not what goes in. He taught us to use moderation in all things, to help those who fall down...Why fear for "what people will think." If others see your acts of love, do you fear that?

brother said...

Who says you have to hold a meeting? Who prevents you from befriending one person and steering them closer to the target? No one will know but God and them. Who says you have to drink alcohol? Who says you have to be a regular?

mike in oregon said...

brother,
thanks for your comments. I'm going to chew on some awhile and then respond. But first, who says you have to hold a meeting?? No one, of course. The scope of how I'm viewing this is in regards to those groups that do....

There are many ways in which we communicate. What we say, do, dress, where we go,etc, etc speaks a message. How and what we communicate, those are important issues that we must think through.

Steve Hopkins said...

Of course we don't HAVE yo have meetings to be the church but the bible does say God gives each oi us gifts for the edifying of the body...if we aren't together once in a while it would be difficult to use those gifts. Also the bible admonishes us to not forsake the assembling of our selves together.

We are also called "a body". It would be hard for a physical body to function if all the parts weren't connected.

Church to me is what we are and what we do more than a place we go to but still, I think the bible tells us to come together as a body once in a while

brother said...

Mike,
Of course I understand your reference and I cannot comment firsthand about the particular "meetings in the bar," except to say I can think of worse social commonalities. Steve, I agree completely with meeting and learning and worshipping together with as much regularity as possible. My point is that ministry and worship are not confined to a particular form. We know that real church begins with any two or three together in Christ's name. A formal place of worship is a marvelous thing, especially for families, and the importance of your ministry is underlined and I personally thank you. Familiarity, bonding and edification, the signs of a family and evidence of a body, yes. To desire it's exclusivity in a formal or traditional form, though, is to restrain God and I believe counter to the teachings of Christ. It is a given that some new worshippers will trickle out of the 'seedier' places of worship and into healthier places for regularity and growth. 'In His time,' a friend of mine once wrote in a song.